THE DAILY DIALECTICS

Aaron · #1 (**permalink**) 04-26-2007, 11:55 PM

Bedini SG discussion here. For single or multi coil and/or multi strand. The simplified version to charge batts without the cap setup.

Get a copy of the only Authorized Bedini SG Handbook - Bedini SSG

Aaron · #2 (**permalink**) 05-09-2007, 10:35 PM

John Bedini | Radiant Energy

Aaron · #3 (**permalink**) 06-14-2007, 12:52 AM

A Bedini circuit I built with a reel to reel motor John gave me
a few years ago.

Pretty cool and interesting SG. Very fast and very efficient.
Charges batts pretty good. I never measured efficiency. If I put
1 batt bank on the output or 4, it doesn't really change the input
it doesn't care. Of course can grab the shaft to increase the load
and the input does not increase.

5000 rpm it draws 1 amp avg
10,000 rpm it draws only 1/5 of an amp avg

Video clip:
http://www.esmhome.org/library/aaron...i/aaron-sg.wmv

Aaron · #4 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007, 08:38 AM

John Bedini | Radiant Energy

can watch the reel to reel motor video on youtube.

Shamus · #5 (**permalink**) 08-17-2007, 04:14 AM

@Kevin: I would strongly encourage you to do it an hour at a time if you have to, and please post progress reports!

And yes, I've gotten bit by the high voltage coming off the power coil more than once!

Well, since I'm kinda stuck at the moment waiting for magnet wire to arrive before I can finish building the current machine, I thought I'd post a few thoughts on it--even though only one coil is present, it's got a diode hanging off the collector, so it counts in my opinion.

The schematic below shows its current state.

Yes, curiosity got the better of me and I've tried charging 1.5V AA cells as part of a 6V battery. It seems to work somewhat, though I haven't done any rigorous testing. I did notice that the rotor slows down when there's a battery in the charge position. Interesting! I know that you probably won't get optimum results using these types of cells, but it seems to me that if the negentropy process that Tom and John talk about in the provisional patent application listed in Free Energy Generation is correct, then it should be possible to charge these kinds of cells as well. Just a thought.

Another interesting thing that I've seen (er, heard) with this machine is what I call 'the hum'. One time, before I soldered the components in place, I had to re-hookup the parts because they had wiggled loose. Once I had them connected back together and connected power (without a charging battery hooked up) I noticed a fairly loud hum coming out of the coil! The coil wasn't heating up and the neither was the transistor, but it pushed the magnets of the rotor out of the way so that the coil was in the middle of two magnets. Interesting! The hum stopped immediately as I disconnected the battery. After I connected power again, the hum started again. This time, I tried to see if there was anything coming off the diode but the meter reading was inconclusive. Strangest of all, when I connected a battery to the charging position the hum stopped as well. Curiouser and curiouser...

After I disconnected the charge battery the hum didn't come back, but it did come back a while later. It seems to be a bit capricious, this hum.

I did notice that it was much easier to get the rotor spinning up to speed when the coil was humming versus when it wasn't. It seems these machines are full of surprises.

And maybe I didn't notice it before, but it seems that there's also a faint hum in the coil of the first machine that I built as well.

A question comes to mind about this circuit. In the PPA in Free Energy Generation it's stressed that the radiant energy capture circuit has to be separated from the drive circuit, but in the circuit below, this is clearly not the case. Also, I have strong reason to believe that the circuit below works well (I can elaborate if necessary

), although some changes in the resistor are probably needed for optimum operation. It could be that I'm missing something obvious--after all, I'm still experimenting and learning this stuff first hand and trying to make sense of it all.

Aaron · #6 (**permalink**) 08-17-2007, 04:27 AM

Very Cool! Schematic looks good. Very nice bare bones ssg.

Those alkaline batts aren't the best but they can be charged at least a few times from my experience before having to throw them away. I'd recommend using some 6v and/or 12v gel cell batts...the black body type you can get at radio shack or elsewhere.

Those are good to learn with.

The hum you discovered is the circuit is self oscillating at high frequency. Most likely this is what is happening. If you have a scope on it, you will see something like this pic.

I played with my roller skate motor for months before doing anything else. Not even trying to charge anything with it. Will learn a lot more if you just get obsessed about the bare basic model first without doing anything else. In my opinion.

Shamus · #7 (**permalink**) 08-26-2007, 01:20 PM

@Aaron: Thanks for the clarification. I think I've learned what I need to from the SG by itself--needless to say, there's probably more secrets in that thing than I've found so far. It continues to surprise me, especially in light of how simple it appears.

I'm sure you're probably aware of John Bedini's sense of urgency in wanting people to learn the technology (as expressed in this message). I have every reason to believe that he's right, and mostly from what I've been seeing from independent sources. The time is short. And I'm sure you'd agree that this isn't the place to discuss such things.

At any rate, I've started some preliminary load testing, and the data so far is encouraging.

Under the first load test, the battery took about 45 minutes to discharge down to 12.00V (under a 25W load running from a voltage inverter). Charging took about 30 hours to get it up to 13.46V (have to retune the thing for a PSU).

Running another load test, the battery took about 60 minutes to discharge down to 12.00V under the same load. So there's something very interesting going on here. I'll post more details as testing progresses.

Aaron · #8 (**permalink**) 08-26-2007, 10:42 PM

Hi Shamus,

Sounds like great progress. The capacity of your battery is growing as you condition them. You are literally changing the properties of the battery. Should grow in capacity and take less and less time to charge up to the same level.

John has known the urgency for years but it isn't until recent times that people are paying attention. With gas prices going up and insane politics, people are starting to pay attention.

The Bedini technology and water fuel cell technology are my two favorite ones to focus on.

Shamus · #9 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 04:16 PM

Well, I'm in round four of charging and things haven't been coming along as well as I had hoped. I'm not going to stop here until I see a solid trend, but the preliminaries thus far are not encouraging. That and the fact that it takes about 30-40 hours for one charge cycle!

Load times are staying fairly flat so far. Here's the numbers so far:

Code:

Charge T  Chg End V  Ld St V  Load T
--------  ---------  -------  ------
                     12.85    00:44
32:50     13.46      13.34    00:57
29:48     13.47      13.36    00:48
40:20     13.89      13.52    01:03

This is a regular old Radio Shack lead-acid battery, 12V/7Ah. I'm discharging it into a 350W inverter and powering a 25W bulb for load testing. It's strange: Once it gets up to around 13.30V the charging seems to hit a wall--only gaining 0.01V per hour.

Now I've read where John Bedini says that the number of turns on the coil isn't important, nor its size. Maybe I'm getting some cross-conduction on my transistor (since it's 2N3055, which John considers junk)? I don't know how to check for that. John also says that you want the highest resistance on the base so that you get the highest RPM for the lowest current. Currently the RPM on my circuit is fairly high, and the base resistance is right around 1100 ohm.

Anyway, I'll post more results as they slooooowly come in.

NOTE: The missing data in the graph around hours 9-10 and 16-22 are due to an outside obligation at the time and the need for sleep.

Aaron · #10 (**permalink**) 08-31-2007, 09:53 AM

Hi Shamus, on these smaller systems, the charging will be much slower, but usually after many rounds of conditioning, the charging back up will get quicker and quicker.

A 5 coil setup (4 power 1 trigger) of about 18 guage 100 feet long each is for more practical application but before doing that in my opinion...getting the whole personality of the motor you have down is very crucial, in my opinion.

amigo · #11 (**permalink**) 09-13-2007, 01:04 AM

After winding and rewinding several different coils, I have built one that I sort of like (for now). I had previously built a SSG with a 26+24 AWG so I used that as a base for a coil. On top of that I wound trifilar 20 AWG as power coil.

The motor works ok I suppose, what I'm wondering about is why do we need to tie all the multi-filar strands in the power coil together in parallel (for the circuit that does not have transistor per each coil)?
When I keep them parallel I get about 100V radiant spikes, but when I tie them in series then I get little over 400V. Isn't it better to have higher potential?

Are we looking for less or more resistance in the power coil? What about the trigger coil, should that be on a higher resistance?

Also, the conclusion I came to is that 2N3055 is a joke compared to MJL21194 and that even for beginning circuits everyone should use the later. There's just a magnitude of quality difference between the two that cannot be ignored. My motor just purrrrs nicer with MJL21194 and can be fine tuned to a better degree than with 2N3055.

Next I'm adding this Cap Pulse Timer circuit (link from Bedini_SG Yahoo group, I'd figure most of you are members there, no?) , has anyone else built this one and has any experiences to share?

Oh forgot to add this. I built this coil and it worked (sort of because I did not wind to that size but smaller) but only if I pointed it in reverse (power coils toward the rotor). It was producing all kinds of strange sounds and would draw quite a current (1-2A sometimes). Somehow I could tune it down to 400mA and I'd get over 300V radiant spikes as well.

Funny thing is that I have never seen my NE-2 bulb light up (dimly) when I touch the collector of the transistor on other setups except this one, and there was no primary or secondary batteries connected.

Is this normal behaviour and does it happen for you or did I stumble upon something unexpected?

Shamus · #12 (**permalink**) 09-13-2007, 12:25 PM

Hola Amigo,

What is the difference between the 2N3055 and the MJL21194? I know the characteristics of the other parts (the 1N914 is a fast switching diode, the 1N4007 is a high power/voltage diode, etc) but when it comes to transistors I don't know squat. What are the characteristics that we're supposed to be looking for in this part? Power rating is one, but I have no idea what the others should be.

If you don't know, maybe someone else who does can kindly interject.

Shamus · #13 (**permalink**) 09-13-2007, 05:07 PM

Sometimes things just stare you in the face and you don't realize the implications until much later, when the connection finally manifests itself to you in a form so clear that you wonder why you didn't see it before.

All of this arose because I was thinking of Rick Freidrich and the struggles he's gone through trying to convince people of what they had with the SSG. And the problem probably stemmed from the fact that most people don't have any understanding of conventional electronics theory--they just built the things, connecting the parts as shown in the schematic, and didn't really think all that much about it.

So in the midst of pondering this, all of the sudden it hit me like a ton of bricks!

Take a look at the picture and circled part. The way the diode is hooked up means that absolutely no current will flow at any time according to conventional EM theory. The positive from the charging battery is blocked by virtue of being connected to the cathode of the diode coming off of the power coil! So simple! Yet so diabolically clever!

The way that diode sits in the circuit (again, according to conventional theory) means that it's basically an open short--you could remove the diode and battery completely because they have absolutely no path where a current can flow through them!

After going through several charge/discharge cycles, you have to wonder just what is charging the battery? 'Cause it sure ain't electrons!

Ted Ewert · #14 (**permalink**) 09-13-2007, 07:14 PM

Hi Shamus,
That diode does indeed pass current (and the more the better! :-). Think of it as a compression diode.
When the transistor first turns on, the current from the battery is temporarily attenuated by the coil. Current will not flow until the magnetic field is built up around the coil.
Consequently, when the transistor turns off, that field collapses and produces a high positive voltage right where the cathode of that diode is. If this voltage is not bled off, it will increase on subsequent cycles and blow up your transistor in many cases.
It is this energy that is extracted buy the interaction of the magnet, coil and pulses that charges the battery so well.
Voltage alone won't charge these batteries. They need a combination of high voltage and low impedance in short duration pulses.
Note on batteries:
Batteries take a while to become conditioned. Don't get discouraged if they don't work so great even through the first 10 or even 20 cycles. It usually doesn't take that long, but there are different types of batteries, sizes and chargers that make this an inexact science at best.
None of the Bedini machines work that well on unconditioned batteries. That's one of the reasons I think people get discouraged. It also takes a while to get used to how the machines work.
The SSG is an awesome machine for learning about this technology. The more you fool around with it and experiment, the more you will learn. It is a very simple machine electrically, but it embodies all the concepts Bedini has worked so many years to discover.
It's all there for those who are patient and persistent. It just takes a while to learn.

Ted

adam ant · #15 (**permalink**) 09-14-2007, 12:15 AM

has anyone ever tried to use AC on a bedini sg?

the reason i ask is that i wonder if you could use the wall current, and return it back to another outlet and reverse the Electric Meter outside. you would in a sense be "recharging" the electric company. in most states (in the US) they will pay you for power generated and sent to them. this would eliminate the need for 20 - 30 car batteries, noxious fumes, you could eliminate your electric bill, and possibly make some extra money on top of it.

is this possible?

-bryan

amigo · #16 (**permalink**) 09-14-2007, 01:24 AM

In one of my experiments (now it escapes my mind whether I had that "weird" coil or was it a normal one hooked up - should start keeping lab notes, sigh) I used my DC power supply set to 12V as a primary.

I left the motor spinning and walk away from the desk for a bit. Came back and just looked around the desk then gazed up at the voltage indicator on the psu and it showed 16 or so volts. I was thinking what a ... so I unplug the motor and lo and behold the voltage went back to 12V.

It would appear that the motor was feeding back some potential/energy back into the psu, while at the same time charging the secondary battery and spinning pretty fast.

Sorry it's not directly AC related but I figured it might be relevant...

adam ant · #17 (**permalink**) 09-14-2007, 01:58 AM

i wouldnt be comfortable trying the AC experiment myself, as my electrical knowledge is old and rusty. i would be a bit nervous about doing major damage, shocking myself, or who knows what else.

i figured someone would have tried it by now, or at least thought about it.

Kevin · #18 (**permalink**) 09-14-2007, 06:28 AM

Adam,

Since it is a cold charge there are no fumes generated when charging the batteries with the SG charger....batteries never get even warm.

Aaron, correct me if I am wrong....but I believe the voltage spikes going into the battery are AC, not DC. (the neon light that lights up when it is running is a 120v ac light)

Yes, Shamus, (Kevin hangs his head in shame-

) I am one of those guys that took the schematic, some explanation from Aaron, and some TRV data and just built it. Did not concentrate too much on how it worked...only as much as I need to in order to get the most usable energy for the energy spent.

amigo · #19 (**permalink**) 09-14-2007, 12:15 PM

Kevin,

I think that the spikes are DC (basically PWM) - they are half-wave, rectified by the diode on the collector, no? The NE is before the diode thus it lights up only on AC.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong

Shamus · #20 (**permalink**) 09-14-2007, 04:39 PM

@Kevin: I was speaking mainly of the people on the Bedini_SG list who were demanding overunity from the machine without really comprehending what was right in front of their eyes, and Rick's frustration with said people.

At any rate, I'm just trying to figure out this stuff too since something seems to be very wrong with my setup. I'm in round 14 of load testing and the load times have been dropping about a 1/2 hour each time.

Ted Ewert · #21 (**permalink**) 09-14-2007, 09:08 PM

It's pulsed DC. The FWBR just gets it going in the right direction.
Neons don't care and will light on anything at their rated voltage.

Aaron · #22 (**permalink**) 09-15-2007, 08:51 AM

Hey Kevin,

Ditto to Ted's answer.

Also, another thing to throw into the mix Shamus is that when the circuit is in resonance (you can usually hear and see the wheel speed up really quick like shifting gears), it is fast enough at that point that the "scalar south" between the north faces on magnets are ATTRACTED to the NORTH field on the coil pulse. At that time, the wheel is spinning for FREE! That is a good one to meditate on.

The sg seems to only take power because there is back emf on the on pulse for a small blip of time and that is it.

Before the circuit is in resonance (with rotor), it takes more power to charge an electromagnetic coil against a magnet with an opposing field. But a south field in between the norths actually helps pull that north field out of the coil easier! This is how I see it at least but no matter how it is seen, the wheel spins for free

and the charging of the coil has it's own loss but that isn't what powers the wheel.

adam ant · #23 (**permalink**) 09-15-2007, 01:03 PM

thank you for the explanation, but that brings me back to my original question

has anyone ever tried to use wall AC current on the Bedini SG(battery charger version), and if it was possible to use this setup to send the power back to the electric company.

Kevin · #24 (**permalink**) 09-16-2007, 08:31 PM

Thank you Ted and Aaron.

As you know Aaron,

once I got the thing functional with two circuits and started having a COP of 1.00+ I just concentrated on tuning it/experimenting to get the best COP I could.

Shamus, Aaron or Ted or ?, may correct me, but if I recall I did NOT start seeing any significant COP of 1+ until AFTER my batteries were conditioned. This takes about 20-30 charge/discharge cycles.

Another thing...I am sure it is because my wheel is not perfectly balanced, and because they are cheap bicycle bearings, but I found that the best RPM for my setup is between 295 and 300.

I can get the RPM up to 900+, but when I do that the ratio of energy expended to energy captured in the charging batteries is not as beneficial COP wise.

Of course, every setup is different.

There are so many factors in tuning the charger-here is a list of just a few of the variables that I constantly played with:

Resistance
RPM
Distance of magnets on wheel from coil
Making sure all the wires from the coil to the different connections were the same length and as straight as possible.
Experimenting with different gauge wire leading to the charging battery
Getting the voltage spikes as clean as possible on the oscilloscope
There is more, but those are the biggies that I can remember right now.

Adam, regarding plugging into AC...that seems like oil and water to me...Aaron can correct me if I am wrong, but the energy "captured" by the SG is not able to be measured in a typical manner and is specifically usable by batteries.

Oh Shamus, btw, I started out using the little gel cell 12 volt batteries from Radio Shack...everything worked fine on those, but I soon changed to full size deep cycle 12 volt batteries for the majority of my testing.

Shamus · #25 (**permalink**) 09-16-2007, 09:11 PM

@adam_ant: Like Kevin said, it probably won't work without doing something to transduce the hole current to an electron current. At any rate, it's certainly possible and people with solar and other more conventional overunity (err, COP > 1.0) systems sell excess power to the Electric Company all the time. If you do follow that course of action, you would do well to have a fake solar array somewhere just in case the Electric Co. comes snooping around. You don't want to mess with those guys.

@Kevin: Is what I have a gel cell? And how did you source your deep cell batteries? I do know that you can get them on the cheap if they're not new (and of course, that would be preferable), I just don't know where to get 'em.

amigo · #26 (**permalink**) 09-17-2007, 03:25 PM

Shamus, that's a gel-cell.

I got mine from a surplus store though it's not 7Ah like yours but only 2.3Ah, for $1.95 each can't go wrong.

Plus the battery seems brand new, plastic case looks pretty clean with just minor scrathes and the two connectors do not appear to have been used what so ever. Naturally I bought half a dozen...

Shamus · #27 (**permalink**) 09-17-2007, 10:25 PM

Ah, heck, that's what I was afraid of... I've been loading it down to 12.00V for each load cycle, which is a sure path to damage.

Oh well, live and learn.

Kevin · #28 (**permalink**) 09-17-2007, 11:30 PM

Most of my batteries are generic Walmart deep cycle and/or Marine batteries. I do have a couple car batteries that "died" and were discarded because they would not take a charge from a traditional battery charger.

After a couple dozen cycles on the SG they work like new!

gehko · #29 (**permalink**) 09-18-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam ant

thank you for the explanation, but that brings me back to my original question

has anyone ever tried to use wall AC current on the Bedini SG(battery charger version), and if it was possible to use this setup to send the power back to the electric company.

I did some fiddling with the AC idea and Shamus's circuit and came up with this circuit. It seems to give off a similar spike, but instead of using the Bedini magnet wheel it uses the ac frequency. At the bottom you can see the 19.7 kV spikes, and the OUT is where you would put the charge battery. I dont know how efficient it is, i just thought i would try the idea on "paper". I havent built it in real life.

amigo · #30 (**permalink**) 09-18-2007, 10:40 PM

I'm not sure that simulation software can give us a real picture of the outcome. I thought that we are dealing here with "unwanted by-products" that most traditional engineers consider as noise and interference and want to surpress and filter out.
Software would most likely ignore it or discard it due to being based on convenitonal methods and beliefs, too?

@adam ant

What did you mean when you said to use wall AC current? Use it as a primary battery replacement, without any conversion to DC or just as a trigger?


Tom Bearden and John Bedini testing a monopole energizer	Tom Bearden John Bedini during a TUV test

Dual monopole motor Test	Dual monopole

Testing of the Bedini Cole circuit , The Real McCoy	4 Pole Monopole motor

4 Pole Monopole motor	Bedini Motor Generator first patent

Bedini Motor Generator first patent , charging batteries	Bedini Cole Window Motor

LinkBacks (?) LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.energeticforum.com/john-bedini/364-bedini-sg.html
Posted By	For	Type	Date
John Bedini \| Radiant Energy	This thread	Refback	05-10-2007 12:38 PM

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