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material, while diopside belongs to the AC: The dating of the map is extremely satellite imaging and dominated pyroxenes, which are volcanic materials. important. I would like to remind you that nanotechnologies and material chemistry. AF: Then the materials analysed show the dolomitisation of the Urals ended 250 _ But if this were the case, he would have left without any doubt a civilisation that million years ago and that the shells notes and records for posterity, considering knew how to use nanotechnologies? involved in the process were from the _ the enormous amount of work necessary to AC: Yes, for sure. Gyroideae family, Narcopsina celote sub- make it. We know about Plato, Leonardo AF: So you say the stone isa map. family. Those shells appeared on Earth da Vinci and other great minds of the past, What makes you think it is? 180 million years ago and eventually died but we know nothing about the creator of AC: At the beginning we thought that out some 60 million years ago. Here we _ this wonder. the surface of the stone was simply cracked have a time window within which the AF: Where was the analysis of the due to the old age or its natural structure. shells were put—beware: I say "put", not map carried out? But when we started to look closer at those _"fossilised"—in the map. AC: Mainly in Ufa. It has been studied signs we now recognise as rivers, I found Then we have the archaeomagnetic also by science history experts from out that the right banks of the rivers were measurements that show what follows: the Moscow, but the greatest help I had was clear cut, while the left banks were more edge of the map is oriented towards the from the Aerial Imaging Division of the polished. That is what happens with "real". magnetic pole, while the direction of the Cartography and Geodesy Department of rivers because of the effect of Earth rota- geographic pole drawn on the map is at an the University of Moscow. They particu- tion and of Coriolis forces. So I looked at angle of 22 degrees from the magnetic _larly helped me understand the mathemati- the edges of the canals to deter- cal principles upon which the map mine the direction of the rivers’ was based. flows. The fact is that Coriolis AF: Your colleagues are all and Beer's laws have been dis- against you. How would you like covered only in the last century. to answer back? It has been a shock to realise that AC: I know that happens, but I the map has been drawn accord- think this is something extremely ing to those principles. Anyway, positive. I'm happy to have raised those two clues weren't enough this argument, but I would like to determine that what we had in also to warn my colleagues that front of us was a map. they can't study this object only A map is a mathematical sys- from the pictures, no matter how tem, so when I calculated the good and accurate they are. ratio between the height and the If somebody criticises me I reply width of the stone, I found out Y “A that I am a physicist, a well-known that the tangent angle was 54 HERA Editor Adriano Forgione (left) with Professor Alexander Chuvyrov scientist from the University of degrees, the same angle as Ufa's — quring his visit to Rome for the interview. (Photo © HERA Magazine) _ Bashkiria, and I know how to think latitude. At that point the mean- scientifically. I know how to carry ing of a certain sign on the map was clear. pole. We can find out the age of the slab out scientific research. I know how to do It represented a circle crossed by two tan- through Hiebert's curve, which determines __ all this as well as those who criticise me. I gents, and the angle between them was _ the position of the magnetic pole at a given know that this is an unclassifiable object in exactly 54 degrees. This gave me the key time. If the calculations are right, the the human cultural landscape as we know to calculate the exact latitude of the loca- magnetic pole at the time of the map was in __ it, but, no matter what, we owe it respect. I tion drawn in the map, and from there to the Yamal Peninsula in Russia. And that don't want to offend my colleagues, find out the mathematical system upon happened 120 million years ago. The because only colleagues of mine could which the map was founded. And it match- dating fits perfectly with the time window make this thing. Therefore, I ask for es perfectly to any of the recent maps of the we spoke of before. If this is the case, the respect for the creator of this map. oo area. The system used is neither Mercator's _C-14 dating is pointless, because that test is nor Gauss—Kluger's. not able to point out a date older than About the Interviewer: But to draw a map, you need not only 46,000 years ago. In fact, the fossilised Adriano Forgione is the editor of HERA, an cartography principles but also convention- entrails of the shells have been carbon __ Italian magazine which features ancient al signs, and we deduced them from the _ dated, but, because of their old age, the — myths and legends, lost civilisations and inscriptions. We understood that on the _ response was fruitless. Even the argon and _ archaeological mysteries. He is the author of map were drawn 32 dams within a hydro- uranium dating have proved unreliable. Science, Mystique and Alchemy of the Crop graphic system. This shows that the map The archaeohydrological analysis Circles (HERA Edizione, February 2003). was created by a civilisation that needed to showed that 60 million years ago the water This interview first appeared in HERA, no. control waters with dams—something like system was already as it is in the map. 34, October 2002, published by Edizioni today's Holland. Maybe one hundred years ago (when the HERA SrL, Via Brennero no. 58 00010, Tor AF: Let's talk about the dating. If stone first showed up) there existed a very Fonte Nuova (Roma), tel +39 (0)774 308028, that was a technological civilisation, to smart geologist who could understand and email heramagazine@heramagazine.net, which time window shall we ascribe it? apply the Coriolis law, knew how to operate _ website http://www.heramagazine.net. AC: The dating of the map is extremely important. I would like to remind you that the dolomitisation of the Urals ended 250 million years ago and that the shells involved in the process were from the Gyroideae family, Narcopsina celote sub- family. Those shells appeared on Earth 180 million years ago and eventually died out some 60 million years ago. Here we have a time window within which the shells were put—beware: I say "put", not "fossilised"—in the map. Then we have the archaeomagnetic measurements that show what follows: the edge of the map is oriented towards the magnetic pole, while the direction of the geographic pole drawn on the map is at an angle of 22 degrees from the magnetic pole. We can find out the age of the slab through Hiebert's curve, which determines the position of the magnetic pole at a given time. If the calculations are right, the magnetic pole at the time of the map was in the Yamal Peninsula in Russia. And that happened 120 million years ago. The dating fits perfectly with the time window we spoke of before. If this is the case, the C-14 dating is pointless, because that test is not able to point out a date older than 46,000 years ago. In fact, the fossilised entrails of the shells have been carbon dated, but, because of their old age, the response was fruitless. Even the argon and uranium dating have proved unreliable. The archaeohydrological analysis showed that 60 million years ago the water system was already as it is in the map. Maybe one hundred years ago (when the stone first showed up) there existed a very smart geologist who could understand and apply the Coriolis law, knew how to operate About the Interviewer: Adriano Forgione is the editor of HERA, an Italian magazine which features ancient myths and legends, lost civilisations and archaeological mysteries. He is the author of Science, Mystique and Alchemy of the Crop Circles (HERA Edizione, February 2003). This interview first appeared in HERA, no. 34, October 2002, published by Edizioni HERA SrL, Via Brennero no. 58 00010, Tor Fonte Nuova (Roma), tel +39 (0)774 308028, email heramagazine@heramagazine.net, website http://www.heramagazine.net. JUNE — JULY 2003 NEXUS +63 www.nexusmagazine.com